New character

[Learned Hand]

blackrat said:

I never said only take one combat ability I just don't think you need all three of Thrown, Melee and MA. If thrown appeals to you, take it. If being able to fight close combat appeals to you, take Melee or MA. If being able to go proper crazy in close combat appeals to you, take both Melee and MA. If you don't take either Melee or MA, take Dodge for some defence.

Personally I'd always take Resistance, and tend to view Dodge as a combat ability for those who need a defence (i.e. haven't taken Melee or MA). However, LH's view is a viable alternative. I should clarify, though - and I think LH would agree - that you should still take Resistance for one or two Ox-Body levels and Body-Mending Meditation, even if you don't take the soak charms.

True dat

[bravesirrobin]

cardinalsin said:

Hi folks

Most of you know me from AD I think. I'll hopefully be joining the group in the next couple of sessions.

At BSR's suggestion, I'm looking at a night caste with a strong stealth angle. Vaguely ninjaish concept.

I'd welcome any thoughts from a system perspective - including considerations of party balance - on what I should take for him.

My current thoughts are:
- Dex 5/Str 3/Sta 3; Per 4/Wit 4/Int 2; Cha 4/Man 2/App 2
- All night caste abilities 3 or 4, with a few charms to go with each
- Resistance plus charms
- Presence perhaps with one charm
- Thrown weapon skill plus a few charms
- Melee and/or martial arts with charms. Not sure which, or whether I should do both? System is so detailed it's hard to decide...
- Some other random stuff. I did consider sorcery but the flavour doesn't excite me and I think the party is well served for that (Grey Wolf is taking a battle sorcerer). Maybe investigation and/or socialize, for information-gathering purposes? Any thoughts?
- I have no idea what I'll take for backgrounds and have barely even glanced at that section of the book so any suggestions welcome.

Background etc will follow (unless it's secret, in which case it won't).

CS

Well it looks like most of your questions have been answered. To clarify a couple of points, bonus points can be used to put things as high as you want - with the single exception of essence. which starts at 3 at may not be raised at character creation.

you will have XP, but you may not be allowed to spend it prior to your entrance.

[bravesirrobin]

Thinking about abilities for this character, apart from Night Caste:

For combat
Resistance (not necessarily favoured)
Thrown
Martial Arts or Melee (not necessarily favoured)

Thrown is likely to be enough, since there is no penalty for using thrown weapons when other people close in on you. It means your parry DV will be poor, but if you have a decent Dodge DV that won't be too much of a problem.

However, as previously said, ESS is awesome, and the Melee tree is one of the best in the game, and thrown works best from surpise. So it may be worth taking something here. If you do plan to build on them, it will be worth taking them favoured because charms are your friend here and they'll be more expensive without favouring.

For social combat
Investigation
Socialise (not necessarily favoured)
Integrity (not necessarily favoured)
Presence (not necessarily favoured)

My feeling is that given the nature of the character the first three of these are more or less essential, probably with an excellency. Though Integrity/Socialise may not need to be favoured based on how you want to move forward. You may never need more than an excellency so you won't need to spend on charms and hence can get away with it not being favoured.

[cardinalsin]

So, I read the social combat tutorial, which was helpful - though it didn't give enough of a breakdown of how things work to really figure what I need to be good at (BR's summary helps).

Does appearance reduce the difficulty even when you're dealing with a less face-to-face situation? I'm thinking of things like information-gathering through contacts. I think you roll Contacts (plus something? Manipulation?) for that kind of thing, is that right?

I'm a bit puzzled by the manipulation/charisma distinction. It would appear that someone with a high manipulation could find it easier to make up a convincing lie than simply to tell the truth, which seems odd.

[cardinalsin]

I think I'd like to take something for use close-up - it isn't that thrown is actually weak up-close, it just isn't as amazing as the alternatives.

But will depend partly on how much I need to put aside for other purposes. It's a bit of a squeeze.

[Blackrat]

I think most STs would rule that Appearance only applied where it was a face-to-face situation, or possibly given other special circumstances too.

cardinalsin said:

I'm a bit puzzled by the manipulation/charisma distinction. It would appear that someone with a high manipulation could find it easier to make up a convincing lie than simply to tell the truth, which seems odd.

Yes. In the past people* have summarised the new rules for the social attributes as "fucking stupid".

*i.e. Me

[bravesirrobin]

Yes, if things are done by letter for example, linguistics is used instead of appearance.

If it's more of an information gathering through contacts sort of deal then the sytem is more abstracted and there isn't generally a need for social combat. manipulation/charisma + socialise is likely to be the roll wiht a difficult based on circumstance and contacts and possibly other factors too.

[Blackrat]

Wouldn't you just roll Cha/Manip + Contacts, if you've got them? I think that's what it said in the book...

[bravesirrobin]

potentially yes. but i'd prefer to use socialise and have the contacts affect the difficulty. because then i can adjust for things like the community you're in, the type of information you're looking for and stuff . rathern than assuming your contacts are all purpose wherever you are and whoever your talking to.

for example, most people with contacts so far in the game have nexus based contacts. which haven't really been a whole lot of use so far...

[cardinalsin]

The book definitely mentions rolling Contacts. Though I suppose you might roll Contacts to determine whether you have any contacts who can help with your issue, then if you do, roll Socialize + Whatever to sort out the resulting action.

So... how does the charisma/manipulation distinction work if you're gathering information? Is it a case of "charisma if you ask for the info straight out, manipulation if you ask for it in a sneaky manner"? Or what?

Obv, don't want to have to spend vast numbers of points on having both social attributes high if I don't need to. Suspect manipulation will be more my bag. But a bit worried that if I sell charisma short I'll get fu-bared at some point. Also not sure whether to bother with appearance if I'm more of a networking kinda guy.

On the latter point, I can't figure what happens if you're conducting (say) a whispering campaign against someone else. There most of the action is other people (your social army) doing the whispering, with you not really taking part. Does appearance really matter there? Do you need appearance to do politics?

[bravesirrobin]

basically yes, but it can often depend on the vagaries of the situation. almost every time i make a character i end up needing the one i didn't give myself as many dots in. i suspect you may want manipulation more, but that doesn;t mean you'll never need charisma...

you do need appearance for politics, because it would affect that kind of stuff. the relative appearance of you and your target will affect the difficulty of the rumour campaign against them.

i think it's best to think of appearance as somewhat of an abstraction, it's not just how you look it's an overall measure of the force of your personality, inculding things like looks, first impressions, and how you present yourself. charisma and manipulation are then how you go about using that....

[oneiros]

Query: For just gathering info from a situation or general basis, rather than a one-on-one 'interrogation', wouldn't (Wits+Socialise) or (Wits+Investigation) be more appropriate?

Just wondering if the kind of espionage you're thinking of is dependent on actual personal interaction or more the covert surveillance/'ransack the desk surreptitiously' type?

[cardinalsin]

Hmm, is it going to be worth taking Contacts then, if they're geographically quite limited? I was thinking of taking Contacts 5 so would be a fairly large investment.

[bravesirrobin]

wits is about reacting quickly - i wouldn't ask someone to roll it in information gathering.

cha/man + soc would be rolled for someone making friends in bars and casually dropping in questions about a certain topic

cha/man + inv would be rolled for a more direct sort of questioning, like going around asking for witnesses to a crime or similar

the truth is there's often a lot of overlap. i'll generally ask for a certain type of roll, if you really feel like something else is more appropriate you can ask for that instead, and i'll yay or nay it.

[cardinalsin]

Oneiros: I'm thinking of a character who would be suitable for ransacking desks and such, but who would have a range of contacts capable of providing more general information. Informants, basically.

Surely Wits is about the quickness of your reactions rather than the effectiveness of your actions?