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Post by cardinalsin on Feb 25, 2008 14:22:03 GMT
Hi folks
Most of you know me from AD I think. I'll hopefully be joining the group in the next couple of sessions.
At BSR's suggestion, I'm looking at a night caste with a strong stealth angle. Vaguely ninjaish concept.
I'd welcome any thoughts from a system perspective - including considerations of party balance - on what I should take for him.
My current thoughts are: - Dex 5/Str 3/Sta 3; Per 4/Wit 4/Int 2; Cha 4/Man 2/App 2 - All night caste abilities 3 or 4, with a few charms to go with each - Resistance plus charms - Presence perhaps with one charm - Thrown weapon skill plus a few charms - Melee and/or martial arts with charms. Not sure which, or whether I should do both? System is so detailed it's hard to decide... - Some other random stuff. I did consider sorcery but the flavour doesn't excite me and I think the party is well served for that (Grey Wolf is taking a battle sorcerer). Maybe investigation and/or socialize, for information-gathering purposes? Any thoughts? - I have no idea what I'll take for backgrounds and have barely even glanced at that section of the book so any suggestions welcome.
Background etc will follow (unless it's secret, in which case it won't).
CS
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Post by oneiros on Feb 25, 2008 14:36:17 GMT
Hey CS! Good to have you on board.
For what they're worth, my thoughts are: - we're reasonably well served on Presence with both Kairos and me; I think Fox also may have plenty of Presence. - I think GW is going for good Melee and Kairos is handy with swords. Both he and Ferric are using daiklaves. - We have no Thrown, and I'm using a bow. - Investigation would prob be helpful since I only have it at 2 dots atm. Kairos is a Social-monster though. Might help though having back-up for him though in that area.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 25, 2008 14:43:05 GMT
Night Caste would be excellent, since we've managed to kill off all three in one nasty argument with the Lunars... sigh. Night Castes are extremely flexible, so there are lots of different angles you could take, and it's basically up to you. In particular, it's worth deciding whether you're going to specialise in a few areas or broaden your abilities at the cost of depth. Either work well, though Exalted tends to prefer specialism to an extent, particularly given we've got a large party so all bases are pretty well covered. Attributes look fine, if you're not aiming for too much of a social character. If you do want quite a social character, you'll almost certainly need at least one more dot in Appearance and one or two in Manipulation as well. (By "social" I mean "effective in social combat" - you'll still be perfectly able to carry out a conversation You'll be ok, but not great, and you'll pretty much suck at doing anything deceptive. I'd be tempted to go 3/3/2, possibly, for that reason. I'd put one or two abilities up to 5, personally, just because I like to have one or two things I really excel at. Your choice though, obviously. Take lots of Resistance charms - easily the most useful tree in the game. I'd pick at least one Ox-Body, possibly two, plus Body-Mending Meditation and up to four of the soak charms. I'd agree that Sorcery isn't worth it, particularly given that you're already looking at several different abilities. Combat - I wouldn't waste dots on three different combat abilities. You'll rarely use Melee and Martial Arts, so it would only be for flavour really - and since you've got Thrown as well, that seems pretty redundant to me. Which one of the two you pick is entirely a matter of taste - there are cool things in both trees. Bear in mind that for Melee you'll need a weapon, and a really good one - i.e. an Artifact - will cost you background points, and may not necessarily be available when you need it. That said, there are no perfect defence charms in Martial Arts. Social: Investigation and/or Socialise could be a good idea - basically depends whether you care about your character being an information-gatherer. We already have at least one of those (my character, Fox) but there's no reason why we couldn't use another. Fox isn't brilliant at it, anyway. I think it would be worth adding Integrity to your list, probably with an Excellency - otherwise you might find yourself in serious trouble in social combat and end up being coerced into doing stuff. Random thought: I reckon Excellencies are the best investment in the game, so make sure you plan for plenty of those when drawing up your charm allocations. I've taken one in pretty much every ability I use regularly. Disclaimer: I could type till my hands break with my thoughts on Night Castes Conclusion is that it's really up to you, and anything you create will work - so feel free to ignore everything I've said above.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 25, 2008 14:44:39 GMT
I think Fox also may have plenty of Presence. Fox does not have plenty of Presence but he will be improving it dramatically over the course of the campaign. Also yeah, hi CS, welcome to the Dread Gazebo!
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Post by cardinalsin on Feb 25, 2008 14:56:20 GMT
Thanks, guys.
I evidently need to check out this social combat malarkey. I had caught references to it but didn't realise it was quite as scary as it apparently is.
On abilities, I was under the impression you can't buy higher than 4 at game start? Though I can obviously spend XP, if I have enough (I think I'm due 75% of group XP... which was 7 at last count. Has it gone up since?)
I've got quite a few excellencies down already (they seem to be prerequisites for the funkier charms anyway). Have gone exclusively for 1st excellency. I can't see any reason at all to take the 2nd (I must be misreading the rules, it seems to be a rubbish version of the 1st), while the 3rd seems good but not really better than the 1st.
Presence, I'll have to think about. It seems necessary for character background reasons, but maybe it isn't.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 25, 2008 15:13:13 GMT
Social combat is very similar in mechanics to normal combat, but covers arguing with people rather than hitting them. As a result, you need proper investments in the relevant attributes / abilities to be any good (like real combat). The relevant things are: Charisma - for being honest Manipulation - for being deceptive Appearance - always. It's broken. Integrity - to "dodge", i.e. ignore, a social attack Performance - to affect a group Presence - for one-on-one Socialise - for mass social combat, i.e. group-on-group action. Also applies to a few actions outside of social combat, unlike most of the others. It doesn't matter if you're not terribly good at social combat here, though, because as Oneiros said, Learned Hand's character is the king of it. On abilities, I was under the impression you can't buy higher than 4 at game start? Unless BSR has changed it, you can buy up to 5 in favoured / caste abilities, IIRC. I may have misremembered though, in which case my character is illegal... You are misreading the rules Expected successes on one die = 0.5, so buying 1 guaranteed success for the same cost as two dice means they're roughly equivalent. The first is simply more variable. As a result I think it's better for combat (and social combat) but very little else - most things don't need huge numbers of successes but the guarantee is very useful, so I take 2nd usually. I think the 3rd is a bit pointless myself.
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Post by oneiros on Feb 25, 2008 15:22:24 GMT
Yeah, BSR said 5 was okay. If it's not on the boards then I think I have an email. W/o Occult 5 I couldn't have All-Encompassing Sorceror Sight which would be silly I also wondered about wisdom of 2nd Exc until LH pointed out for non-combat, the guaranteed success is better than sheer numbers of dice. So 1st Exc in Archery but 2nd for Medicine, Occult and Presence. Also, if my rolling in the Lunars campaign is anything to go by, it can be more efficient in achieving the outcome. And with your dice-rolling added to the mix, well...
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 25, 2008 15:28:50 GMT
Hmm... Had a look back at the char. creation rules, and CS is right that it says no more than 3 in most abilities, no more than 4 in caste / favoured. However, I remember clarifying this with BSR and those guidelines mean pre-bonus-points. So you can spend bonus points to get abilities up to 5.
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 25, 2008 15:39:29 GMT
Hey CS
I agree with BR that a night caste only wants one combat ability. Thrown seems to be designed with assassins in mind - it's at its strongest when attacking whilst unseen, although it's pretty damn effective anyway. MA is generally weaker, but cooler. If there's any way you can get hold of a copy of the MA supplement, you might want to check out Ebon Shadow Style (designed for stealthy night castes).
Either way, to stay alive you'll want dodge and/or resistance to go with them. Dodge works very well with ESS.
Investigation is probably better than socialise for information gathering and for balance. Two of us have socialise, either one or none have investigation. It also has one of the best charms ever (knowing the soul's price makes me very happy)
Again, agree with BR that excellencies are great. Integrity excellencies are also very useful but make sure you don't make a character who *I* can't coerce into doing stuff.
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Post by cardinalsin on Feb 25, 2008 16:34:58 GMT
Argh, the social combat system sounds unnecessarily complex.
What I might do, is adapt the character into a slightly more spymaster/assassin role, and pick up socialize and investigation for influence and bribery purposes.
LH, do you mean I should only take one melee skill (Melee or Martial Arts), or one weapon skill full stop? I'm thinking throwing is quite limited as a primary weapon, though as you say good for assassination (that's why I took it). I'd like to be able to hold my own in melee. Ebon Shadow Style sounds intriguing; it looks like I won't be able to google my way to knowing about it, so I may not be able to completely finalise until I can peruse BSR's books.
Hearing that I can take 5s probably means quite a big change in strategy. I'll need to go right through my stats and make substantial changes. Bah.
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Post by oneiros on Feb 25, 2008 16:45:51 GMT
I should be able to give you a CD with most of the books on but I don't think I'm going to be seeing you soon. If you're going to be at Da Krush tho, I can give BSR the CD on Friday to pass on.
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Post by cardinalsin on Feb 25, 2008 16:50:08 GMT
I will be at Da Krush, though if you got it from BT then I can do the same myself. What's the full name of the supplement?
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Post by oneiros on Feb 25, 2008 16:54:06 GMT
Name is Scrolls of Esoteric Wisdom - Volume 1 (I think). I didn't get it from BT but I'm pretty sure Ulrich did. Try demonoid or isotorrent.
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 25, 2008 17:42:46 GMT
I did mean only one combat ability at all, rather than one from melee or martial arts. Here's ESS: Ebon Shadow Style doesn't allow armour; fight unarmed, with sais, or with fighting chains 1st charm: can appear as a corpse; don't need to eat or drink but can sense normally 2nd charm: Can run up walls (good, but there's an athletics charm that does it better 3rd charm: Can stop an opponent from acting (this is much better than it sounds; you use it when you're low on power, whilst your mates beat the snot out of the big bad 4th charm (form charm): Add MA to join battle pool (increases chance of attacking first); Add essence to stealth and dodge DV; can choose to inflict bashing or lethal damage (the DV boost is *huge*; it's equivalent to 6 dice. Using this with a high dodge rating, and/or bracers makes you damn-near unhittable. Especially if you have some dodge charms. This is arguably the best form charm out there) Route 1 5th charm: Subtract MA's worth of soak from an opponent's armour (useful!) 6th charm: Limb-immobilizing method: paralyse a limb by touching it (this is insane! Two hits can take out the toughest opponents. If you're a bastard and you shake their hand before they realise you're fighting then you'll only need one subsequent hit) Route 2 5th charm: Add essence to dodge DV until next action (as if you weren't already good enough at dodging - can also be used against unexpected attacks. It's bascially a substandard dodge charm) 6th charm: Makes an attack undodgable and undefendable, even by most reflexive charms. There's a tough role to allow all reflexive charms to apply. (this also falls under the category of insanely good charms) Basically, a few of the charms charms are a bit meh but it mainly rocks. It is the MA style for ninjas, and so really cool to play with, and stunt with. If you take it, bump up dodge and forget about the defensive resistance charms; you won't be getting hit often enough to need soak, and you'll have a perfect defence if there's something *really* nasty anyway. That'll leave you 13-15 charms for everything night caste, and your socialise ability. Social combat *is* complex. There's a handy (but kind of long) tutorial here: wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php/Exalted_203_Social_Combatand an index of similar tutorials here: wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php/Category:EssaysI think investigation will be better than socialise for you for two reasons: 1) It avoids the more complex of the SC rules 2) We have 2 people with lots of socialise and only one who's half-way good at investigation. That said, the socialise charms are amazing (my character's concept is best described as "I need to use these charms. Bad") So go crazy.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 25, 2008 18:25:33 GMT
I never said only take one combat ability I just don't think you need all three of Thrown, Melee and MA. If thrown appeals to you, take it. If being able to fight close combat appeals to you, take Melee or MA. If being able to go proper crazy in close combat appeals to you, take both Melee and MA. If you don't take either Melee or MA, take Dodge for some defence. Personally I'd always take Resistance, and tend to view Dodge as a combat ability for those who need a defence (i.e. haven't taken Melee or MA). However, LH's view is a viable alternative. I should clarify, though - and I think LH would agree - that you should still take Resistance for one or two Ox-Body levels and Body-Mending Meditation, even if you don't take the soak charms. See rpgs.mapache.org/sites/rpgs.mapache.org/files/Exalted1stEdMartialArts.pdf for charm summaries of most 1st Ed MA styles. Obviously some are out of date, but might be useful anyway. Includes ESS.
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