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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 19, 2008 18:47:39 GMT
I'm still not sold on the drawback-level of the restrictions. Being able to go 10 miles, from anywhere, seems a lot more useful than being able to go from one place to one or two other places.
But moving on, one of the exemplar 4-dot drawbacks is that the artifact requires a small, fragile object. Once removed, the object doesn't work until this is replaced. If every portal (pipe) on the network had such a requirement then that would meet the requirements of the drawback. A wyld seed would do it - they are reproducable, but at resources 5 are hardly easy to get. It also makes sense, since one of the few ways to travel great distances easily is via the wyld.
Overall, it feels like a 3-dot artifact, which 'confer a great advantage in a single discipline' (getting to Nexus very quickly), and 'change the ways certain aspects of the game are played' (getting to Nexus), rather than a 4-dot, which provide overwhelming advantages in their spheres of influence' and provide characters with solutions to 'a variety of problems'. It's not a warstrider; it isn't going to guarantee us victory on the field of battle, it isn't going to allow us to heal everything; it won't allow us to win over whole countries; it won't stop any of us dying. It's going to save us the bother of crowding into a stormwind rider for a couple of days whenever we want to go to either Nexus or possibly a couple of other places. Since it will require essence to use it's not even like we can sneak armies or delegates through.
(BSR - I don't know if you have OC with you, but a 3-dot artifact requires 3 exotic ingredients. One is revealed after each of the first 5 successes on the craft roll, which constitutes the design portion. A 4-dot has 4 exotic ingredients, which are revealed within the first 20 successes)
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bravesirrobin
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 19, 2008 22:52:08 GMT
Found a precedent. Wonders of the Lost Age pg 50 - Gates of Auspicious Passage.
These are basically what we are talking about and the book rates them at Artifact N/A despite a massive essence cost.
We're not talking about a network though, but I would say that each individual gate is a 5dot artifact.
A variation where there was no network, but merely a pair that functioned in concert will therefore qualify as 2 4dot artifacts.
It's basically a feature of the world that instantaneous transport is much harder to achieve than equivalent power levels in areas other than transportation. I like this idea and will therefore stick to it.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 19, 2008 23:21:18 GMT
There's a specific section in the rulebook about instantaneous travel and how it is almost never allowed, IIRC. It seems to be a special case, treated separately from most fast travel. I'll see if I can find it, before anyone hits me with "citation needed";  I may be making it up anyway... For the record, the bit I was thinking of is the "I Teleport Across Creation!" box at the top of page 268 (core 2nd Ed). It doesn't give any specific rules as such, but does indicate that teleportation / instant travel is considered significantly more powerful / expensive than just accelerated travel. |
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 20, 2008 8:31:41 GMT
Found a precedent. Wonders of the Lost Age pg 50 - Gates of Auspicious Passage. These are basically what we are talking about and the book rates them at Artifact N/A despite a massive essence cost. We're not talking about a network though, but I would say that each individual gate is a 5dot artifact. A variation where there was no network, but merely a pair that functioned in concert will therefore qualify as 2 4dot artifacts. What do the gates do? There's a canon artifact whichlets you (a)open any door in creation and (b) walk into any door and out of any other in creation thatis 5-dot. It's basically a feature of the world that instantaneous transport is much harder to achieve than equivalent power levels in areas other than transportation. I like this idea and will therefore stick to it. So shall we take it that the argument is over just like that? We've given several arguments for why this makes sense as a 3-dot. (1) Canonically, it's a 4 dot power (it's listed in the OC under examplesof 4-dot powers) and there has been a debatable 4-dot drawback and a canon 4-dot drawback offered to go with it. (2) In terms of game-impact it makes sense as a 3-dot. It occasionally saves us a couple of days travel. This doesn't help us anywhere near as much as other 3-dot artifacts would, like a warstrider, or the ultimately useful document. It simply saves us the hassle of 2 days in a stormwind rider. Now I grant you that instantaneous travel is difficult and is always meant to be difficult, but as has been mentioned, it does exist, at celestial level (4-dot power). It seems that you're focusing on the fact that something is broadly difficult and simply not considering any of the arguments that take that into account, and go from there. There are also further compromises - entering at one stage of the solar cycle, and exiting at the next stage, for instance. This on top of the compromise of the canonical 4-dot drawback, which no one seems to have noticed. |
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missdixievoom
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Post by missdixievoom on Feb 20, 2008 20:28:51 GMT
Well, I don't have any more to contribute to the discussion about dots, but if it is going to be 4 dot then am I right in thinking it would take so long to make there is no real point in me doing it?
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bravesirrobin
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 23, 2008 14:53:29 GMT
Found a precedent. Wonders of the Lost Age pg 50 - Gates of Auspicious Passage. These are basically what we are talking about and the book rates them at Artifact N/A despite a massive essence cost. We're not talking about a network though, but I would say that each individual gate is a 5dot artifact. A variation where there was no network, but merely a pair that functioned in concert will therefore qualify as 2 4dot artifacts. What do the gates do? There's a canon artifact whichlets you (a)open any door in creation and (b) walk into any door and out of any other in creation thatis 5-dot. It's basically a feature of the world that instantaneous transport is much harder to achieve than equivalent power levels in areas other than transportation. I like this idea and will therefore stick to it. So shall we take it that the argument is over just like that? We've given several arguments for why this makes sense as a 3-dot. (1) Canonically, it's a 4 dot power (it's listed in the OC under examplesof 4-dot powers) and there has been a debatable 4-dot drawback and a canon 4-dot drawback offered to go with it. (2) In terms of game-impact it makes sense as a 3-dot. It occasionally saves us a couple of days travel. This doesn't help us anywhere near as much as other 3-dot artifacts would, like a warstrider, or the ultimately useful document. It simply saves us the hassle of 2 days in a stormwind rider. Now I grant you that instantaneous travel is difficult and is always meant to be difficult, but as has been mentioned, it does exist, at celestial level (4-dot power). It seems that you're focusing on the fact that something is broadly difficult and simply not considering any of the arguments that take that into account, and go from there. There are also further compromises - entering at one stage of the solar cycle, and exiting at the next stage, for instance. This on top of the compromise of the canonical 4-dot drawback, which no one seems to have noticed. I read about that key too - how broken is that? I think the canon 4-dot drawback is potentially good enough - however i think that maybe each wyld seed provides a limited number of uses. i don't see that a wyld seed just being one of the ingredients would be a substantial drawback. i can't say that i have any truly convincing arguments why the gate should be 4dot. it really is just a gut feeling as much as anything else. i have been doing a lot of reading of OC whilst in brussels, and i still haven't shaken my initial response of wanting to make it a 4dot. and i haven't yet heard anything to convince me otherwise. though i think the wyld seed idea is getting there.... |
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 23, 2008 16:05:28 GMT
I read about that key too - how broken is that? So very, very broken. I think the canon 4-dot drawback is potentially good enough - however i think that maybe each wyld seed provides a limited number of uses. i don't see that a wyld seed just being one of the ingredients would be a substantial drawback. The idea in OC is that the wyld seed is easily fragile and/or removable. So your artifact keeps on breaking down because some fucker jumped up and down too hard in the room next door and it disrupted the ambient essence patterns. Or it just keeps getting stolen. Y'know, on the same day that the Deathknights attack Tredemin, leaving us stranded i can't say that i have any truly convincing arguments why the gate should be 4dot. it really is just a gut feeling as much as anything else. i have been doing a lot of reading of OC whilst in brussels, and i still haven't shaken my initial response of wanting to make it a 4dot. and i haven't yet heard anything to convince me otherwise. though i think the wyld seed idea is getting there.... I get what you're saying about gut feeling. I always think of it in terms of game impact. To me, the limited number of portals makes for medium-impact. Nexus is 1500 miles from Tredemin (*love* that map). That's 15 hours travel in a stormwind rider, and then a few more hours to cross the river. So say we want to get to Nexus from Tredemin or vice versa Now: It's a day's travel, and we have to take Azir along. Drawbacks: It's literally a day's travel. You may need to then spend a few hours catching up on sleep. Post-artifact: Travel is instant, and anybody who can spend essence can go. Drawbacks: If the wyld seed is stolen then you're stranded. If Azir isn't with you then you're really, really, fucked. This is the only way the game will change. And you could make very similar arguments about opening other portals (realistically, you'd want to make one to out manse, and that's probably it, which is the same kind of distance) You could certainly put a limit of no more than 5 portals, including the hub (castes/poles) or 4 (directions) or 3 (game balance?) 4-dot artifacts should be game changing, war-winning etc. They have cults. This artifact would be a convenience and provide some cool plot hooks and points. It won't be game-changing because if we want to go to Nexus we can and will go. It will just mean that if we go to Nexus it's slightly easier. Hence the hub should be 3-dot, with each spoke being 1-dot. (all travel has to go through the hub, no spoke to spoke malarky; and you can only use it once per [time period] since spoke-hub-spoke is the same as spoke-spoke) |
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bravesirrobin
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 23, 2008 16:30:22 GMT
You're simplifying travel and the different things associated with it way too much. There's a whole bunch more to think about - you're pretty much only considering the ease of getting from A to B.
Do other people see you travel?
Can other people follow you?
Can other people ambush you while travelling?
What equipment can you take with you when you travel?
What military forces can you take with you when you travel?
Game impact is huge. Not necessarily for things you see going on. And not necessarily for the things you know are going to happen. But the world is vast and instant, safe, group travel is very very powerful.
The artifact you're talking about is both potentially game changing and potentially war winning. The drawback of merely having a wyld seed is not great enough. The artifact is not easy enough to damage, unless it just does randomly malfunction a lot - which I think would be more annoying. And in terms of stealing the component, I don't think that's gonna happen either. Unless you guys are stupid enough to build it where everyone knows or go bragging about it to everyone you meet.
Whilst I don't think every published artifact is correctly rated. I think that the gates of auspicios passage are (artifact 5 each, hence N/A for the network). And if you are planning to construct a network of instant travel gates, i really think each one will be artifact 5 (or at least the hub would be with the others potentially lower).
We seem to agree that the basic principle of the travellator is 4dot. If we can find the right drawback then making it 3dot should be ok (though it may be one design and two manufactures). The limited use argument, really doesn't hold weight in my opinion. A drawback that is not really going to apply isn't a drawback either.
I feel like I'm playing the "I'm the ST" card - which is not my intention. But I think you are massively underestimating the usefulness of these gates, and we can't just keep going over the same point again and again. So it may come down to that in the end.
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 23, 2008 17:20:21 GMT
Do other people see you travel? Can other people follow you? Can other people ambush you while travelling? What equipment can you take with you when you travel? What military forces can you take with you when you travel? Only if they're watching the place where you either appear or dissapear No No Whatever you can carry OR nothing - you have to nude up None. Also, you have to expend essence to go, so no mortals will be travelling. Maybe we're disagreeing because we're talking about different artifacts. You seem to think of something where you can take other people and things (maybe that's what those gates allow?), and MDV had imagined that it would only be you going, and only one journey per day. Could you give some examples of the way that saving a day's worth of travel (rememer that making the journey 6 hours, or one stage of the solar cycle is still on the table) between 2 specific points on the map would be war-winning or game changing, in ways that aren't comparible to other artifact 3 powers? Bearing in mind that only individual essence users can go through, each spending their own essence? |
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bravesirrobin
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 23, 2008 17:45:23 GMT
Do other people see you travel? Can other people follow you? Can other people ambush you while travelling? What equipment can you take with you when you travel? What military forces can you take with you when you travel? Only if they're watching the place where you either appear or dissapear No No Whatever you can carry OR nothing - you have to nude up None. Also, you have to expend essence to go, so no mortals will be travelling. Maybe we're disagreeing because we're talking about different artifacts. You seem to think of something where you can take other people and things (maybe that's what those gates allow?), and MDV had imagined that it would only be you going, and only one journey per day. Could you give some examples of the way that saving a day's worth of travel (rememer that making the journey 6 hours, or one stage of the solar cycle is still on the table) between 2 specific points on the map would be war-winning or game changing, in ways that aren't comparible to other artifact 3 powers? Bearing in mind that only individual essence users can go through, each spending their own essence? The restriction of only essence user's going through is a significant one, and certainly prevents it being war winning. The game changing part is exactly what I was talking about before. The speed of travel really isn't the issue. The safety of travel is. This is why instantaneous travel is so powerful: You can't be followed, you can't be ambushed and you can't even be observed - you can't be caught. This is what changes the nature of the game. Most times you travel these factors won't be an issue. But it's different enough from my perspective to be a very serious consideration - turning a useful 3dot power into a very substantial 4dot/5dot power. If you want to make it, you can make a design roll for a 3dot artifact. Then build two 3dot artifacts. It will have the restriction of only essence users being allowed to use it, and it will likely consume wyld seeds through use - though I haven't decided how quickly. |
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 23, 2008 18:56:24 GMT
Most times you travel these factors won't be an issue. But it's different enough from my perspective to be a very serious consideration - turning a useful 3dot power into a very substantial 4dot/5dot power. I agree that something that stopped you being observed etc when you travel would be a 4 or even a 5 dot power. I think I remember seing something like the 'gem of journeys' or 'gem of safe passage' (possibly in a non-canon source) which did just that. Two replies: (1) This artifact is something that stopped you being observed etc on journeys between "2 fixed points". I'd suggest that there should be be a difference in rating between this and the 4 dot power that protects you on jounreys full stop. (2) Assume people are following us. I mean, I assume that as a circle of solars we aren't just worrying about random bandits. I would expect that they begin to wonder why 5 of us keep on going into a tiny room and not coming back out for days. They might even think 'I should probably check that out. Oh look, a tiny, fragile thingamajig. I wonder what happens if I nick it, or I could just try to use this thing - that could be fun'. Or assume people are waiting to ambush us. They just need to wait until we go to anywhere that isn't Tredemin or Nexus *or* wait until we want to go to Nexus with equipment and assistants. Yes, it does change the game. But I think no more than other 3-dot artifacts do, and nowhere near as much as a 4-dot artifacts do. |
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missdixievoom
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Post by missdixievoom on Feb 23, 2008 22:29:33 GMT
OK, well since we're meeting next week I need to decide what I'm making. The years it would take to make 2 artefacts are way too long for this game, so I won't be making anything of this sort regardless of how many dots it is.
Suggestions for other things which benefit the whole group?
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bravesirrobin
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 23, 2008 22:33:25 GMT
Most times you travel these factors won't be an issue. But it's different enough from my perspective to be a very serious consideration - turning a useful 3dot power into a very substantial 4dot/5dot power. I agree that something that stopped you being observed etc when you travel would be a 4 or even a 5 dot power. I think I remember seing something like the 'gem of journeys' or 'gem of safe passage' (possibly in a non-canon source) which did just that. Two replies: (1) This artifact is something that stopped you being observed etc on journeys between "2 fixed points". I'd suggest that there should be be a difference in rating between this and the 4 dot power that protects you on jounreys full stop. (2) Assume people are following us. I mean, I assume that as a circle of solars we aren't just worrying about random bandits. I would expect that they begin to wonder why 5 of us keep on going into a tiny room and not coming back out for days. They might even think 'I should probably check that out. Oh look, a tiny, fragile thingamajig. I wonder what happens if I nick it, or I could just try to use this thing - that could be fun'. Or assume people are waiting to ambush us. They just need to wait until we go to anywhere that isn't Tredemin or Nexus *or* wait until we want to go to Nexus with equipment and assistants. Yes, it does change the game. But I think no more than other 3-dot artifacts do, and nowhere near as much as a 4-dot artifacts do. Like I said. We've got enough restrictions to make it 3dots. i think we have to agree to disagree on the relative power and game impact of it overall. |
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 24, 2008 18:14:27 GMT
I think you should make something to help yourself. This isn't out of kindness - If you can craft faster then you can help the group more in the long run.
There're 1 or 2 craft enhancing artifacts in Wonders of the Lost Age. I don't have that book (despite 90 minutes spent trudging London today in an attempt to buy it). What exactly are they?
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bravesirrobin
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 24, 2008 18:19:18 GMT
There are some but they tend to be a bit complex. you could probably do with building yourself a workshop - if you check out the workshop descriptions in OC you'll see that Craftsmen Needs No Tools, only provides the benefit of a basic workshop. which gives a two dice penalty.
though the primary benefit of CNNT is the speed basically.
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I may be making it up anyway...