Demon house rule

[Olaf]

I'm about to run a Demon game, and I was thinking of introducing the following house rule. I'd appreciate comments:

I'm thinking of making an alteration to the Eminence Background - the one which dictates how important your Demon is/was. My idea is this: we split the Background into three, which for the moment I'll call Garden Eminence, Fallen Eminence, and Modern Eminence. Garden represents how important your Demon's role was pre-Fall, Fallen how important they were between the Fall and the escape from Hell, and Modern their importance in current Demonic politics. The average of the three can be no higher than the number of dots purchased by the player to go into Eminence as a whole - in other words, each dot of Eminence gives three 'mini-dots' to distribute among the three sub-Backgrounds.

My reasoning for this is that it models the fact that different Demons will be influenced differently by the three facets of Eminence. Someone who fought under you at the Battle of Chethgora will respect your command regardless of the fact that pre-Fall you were merely in charge of the feeding habits of certain rodents, but your once-superior in charge of all rodent affairs might still view you as an inferior. Meanwhile a third Fallen who has no memories of his previous existence will care less about either of these facts than that you're currently one of the influential players in the local Court, or his Faction.

What do you guys think? Is it unnecessarily complicated? Does it make Modern Eminence too powerful, and allow people to Munchkin by saying "he was never important before but now he's the TYRANT OF THE WORLD!" for too few BPs? Should I give out 4 mini-dots per dot and make Modern cost double, or should we split Modern into Court and Faction Eminence?

[Learned Hand]

Doesn't the rule that the average can't be greater than the number of dots purchase either mean that they have to be evenly distributed or do nothing at all.

So if I buy 1 dot, then I get 3 mini dots. Surely I have to put one in each of the 3 sections or the average will be greater than 1. For instance, 2,1; if in this case I'm allowed to include the 0 to give me an average of 0, then what's to stop me putting all 3 dots in one section, and saying the average of 3,0,0 is 1?

I think it's a really interesting rule, but I'd ditch that kind of mathematical requirement. If somebody is not important in the past but is now the Tyrant of Everything, then he needs to have a damn good reason in his background as to why all the people who were more important then him have suddenly let him assume that role. He also needs to be aware that they will probably be scheming to overthrow him.

On the other hand if somebody puts all of their dots into ancient power -ostensibly a weaker option- then they might get approached by their former employees offering aid and suggesting that he might be better in a more influential position.

That evens out the relative power levels so gets rid of the disadvantage. The plus is that as well as a more accurate and interesting system, it makes for some interesting story hooks.

Do it. Do it hard.

[Olaf]

By average I mean the average of all three - so 2,1,0 or 3,0,0 would both count for 1 dot of Eminence.

You seem to be objecting to my average-mechanic thing but not suggesting an alternative. Do you have one in mind?

[Learned Hand]

no, I said to ditch any requirement, and than just have there be negative in-game consequences to anybody who pumps almost all of their dots into modern eminence.

Think of it like Liege - it's ostensibly an amazing background since it give you free dots, but the ST has to make you work for it by giving you harder and more dangerous missions the more you take.

[Olaf]

So then how many dots do you get to distribute? I'm still confused.

Saying 'the average cannot be greater than X' is exactly the same as saying 'you get 3X dots to put between the three'. If you use all your 3X dots, the average will be X. And I see no reason to stop people from forfeiting one or two if the total they want isn't a multiple of 3.

[Learned Hand]

You get 3 mini-dots for every dot you purchase, and you can put them wherever you want.

[luke]

I like this system, though it does put a lot of pressure on you as an ST to take into account how each PC will react to each different type of Eminence, and to stop it getting unbalanced (e.g. theoretically a 3,0,0 character should be as powerful as a 1,1,1, but it might be hard to reflect that).

Personally, I'd say that the highest of the mini-scores cannot be more than 1 higher than the second highest, and likewise for the second highest and the lowest (1,2,3 would be acceptable, but not 0,2,4)

Think about it; 3 Modern, with 0 in each of the others, is implausible because there will be enough Demons around that put a lot of stake into pre-fall and Wrath age importance to stand in your way of being that powerful.

[johandenerad]

luke said:

Personally, I'd say that the highest of the mini-scores cannot be more than 1 higher than the second highest, and likewise for the second highest and the lowest (1,2,3 would be acceptable, but not 0,2,4)

Think about it; 3 Modern, with 0 in each of the others, is implausible because there will be enough Demons around that put a lot of stake into pre-fall and Wrath age importance to stand in your way of being that powerful.

Meh, it's implausible but not impossible; I'm with LH on ST discretion on this one. For the above example, you just need a good background to have it in the first place and will run into more problems if you do. I think it's a good system.

[Olaf]

admin said:

You get 3 mini-dots for every dot you purchase, and you can put them wherever you want.

That's what I said in my first post - isn't it? It's certainly what I meant. I can't see how they differ.

Luke: When you say '...how each PC will react...', do you mean NPC?

0,0,3 is unlikely, but it has to be possible - otherwise you're telling everyone with Eminence 0 they can never be important in the modern world.

I agree with JD. As long as I veto silly things without justification - which I will - I think it should work.

Anyone got thoughts on Garden/Fallen/Modern vs. Garden/Fallen/Modern Court/Modern Faction?

[Learned Hand]

olaf said:

admin said:

You get 3 mini-dots for every dot you purchase, and you can put them wherever you want.

That's what I said in my first post - isn't it? It's certainly what I meant. I can't see how they differ.

Sorry - I didn't get that; I thought you had tried, and failed, to create a different rule. I'm clearly projecting my own bad maths onto you.

Then yes, I agree.

[bravesirrobin]

I think Olaf's proposed sytem is a really good idea. Though I think implementing a rule about how different each one can be is a good idea (so maybe 3/0/0 isn't ok). Also thinking about how it changes when you go over 3 (does WoD have the same rule that over 3 costs double?).

I'd also say that splitting it four ways is a good idea. You can give 4 mini-dots for each dot then and it just means there's greater resolution in the system. Though if you are gonna split it you will almost certainly want rules about parity as 1 background dot giving, say, 0/4/0/0 would be a problem I think.

[Learned Hand]

I'd stick with the 3-way. Four just seems a little bit too complicated, and one assumes the character will specify where his modern influence lies anyway.

[Olaf]

bravesirrobin said:

I think Olaf's proposed sytem is a really good idea.

Woo!

Though I think implementing a rule about how different each one can be is a good idea (so maybe 3/0/0 isn't ok).

Yeah. I'll probably do this on a case-by-case basis rather than trying to come up with a general rule and cover all possibilities.

Also thinking about how it changes when you go over 3 (does WoD have the same rule that over 3 costs double?).

I was meaning to ask this. I think it does, in which case probably the 4th and 5th dots cost 2BP each but give 8 instead of 4 mini-dots - then the 4th and 5th mini-dot in each costs double as well. Also no raising any mini-Eminence above 4 without spending BPs.

Hopefully this will work out well - we'll see. It or something like it seemed needed though, since 'Eminence' was basically your Influence, Reputation and Backing in as many as four or five different supernatural organisations spanning thousands of years of history. You might as well just have a background called 'Background' really.

[Olaf]

admin said:

I'd stick with the 3-way. Four just seems a little bit too complicated, and one assumes the character will specify where his modern influence lies anyway.

I decided to go with just the original three I named. The last two make more sense together than any other pair: it's how many friends and followers you have now, whether they follow you because you're Tyrant or just big in their Faction. Also I'm now more happy about the usefulness of Modern Eminence, because it's the only one that can change. If you're implicated in a plot to assassinate the Minister of Lions you might lose face, but nothing can change the fact that pre-Fall you were the guy in charge of mountain ranges, and that makes for a lot of newly-escaped Malefactors who recognise you as their boss no matter what happens.

EDIT: BSR, did you get my PM about Demon?

[johandenerad]

olaf said:

Also thinking about how it changes when you go over 3 (does WoD have the same rule that over 3 costs double?).

I was meaning to ask this. I think it does, in which case probably the 4th and 5th dots cost 2BP each but give 8 instead of 4 mini-dots - then the 4th and 5th mini-dot in each costs double as well. Also no raising any mini-Eminence above 4 without spending BPs.

Just read this bit, raising backgrounds above three doesn't cost double.