Raiden and the other exalted

[cardinalsin]

Hey, guys.

I'm a little worried about how Raiden fits in with the rest of the party (or parties, depending on where we end up). Raiden is, on a macro scale at least, quite focused on doing "the right thing". This hasn't come out in play much yet, but it probably will.

The problem I forsee is that the direction we're taking is rather more about power-grabbing at any cost. It's going to get progressively harder to justify Raiden wanting to be a part of that, unless he can see how it will contribute to some greater good.

It may be that we are ultimately working towards some greater good, but so far that hasn't been terribly apparent. Anyway, I mentioned my concerns to BSR and he suggested I should raise it here. Anyone care to comment on (a) whether, in reality we are working towards some greater good and (b) if so, what would be a good way to bring that out in play?

Ta

Josh

[oneiros]

Well, it kinda depends on what you see as the 'greater good' and how that applies to your motivation (which doesn't appear to be posted on the character write-up).

The way I see it is that at the moment, we're young, brash, newly-exalted in a world that is slightly against us. We've already experienced the consequences of moving quickly/openly in an attempt to forge a new society, so we're adapting that plan to more of a long-term plan to perhaps bring the glorious rule of Solars/UCS/whatever to Creation.

Azir wants to do good by crafting a universal panacea to the world's health woes and so he's "power-grabbing" now in order build the base on which to work. OOC, I know that this is likely to bring me into conflict with a Deathlord (The Dowager) coz I'll probably have to go into the Noss Fens shadowland to find out more about the Great Contagion. Similarly, others are following their dreams to restore some of their previous glory and aid them towards their motivations because we can't do much without having the means to back it up.

Also, I'm guessing that some folk (Kairos/GW) might want to see about dealing with the Fall of Thorns as a way of raising our reputation by doing good.

I contend that our efforts so far are "at any cost" - whilst Kairos and Azir are quite 'ends justify the means' kind of guys, Fox has the compassion to help rein us in (which has been demonstrated in the past) and similarly Raiden could do the same to guide our efforts towards an objective.

I guess what I'm trying to say is what does Raiden want to see happen?

[cardinalsin]

The problem is not so much Raiden having a concrete goal which the party isn't helping with, and more there being a question hanging over why Raiden would associate with the party in the first place. The universal panacea thing seems like a very noble goal, but has not been mentioned even in passing within Raiden's earshot.

The current impression is more along the lines of what you say in your second para, we want to "bring the glorious rule of Solars etc to Creation". That is very much not a noble goal, unless you think Solars are inherently noble; there's not much evidence of that at the moment.

I guess this partly stems from the fact that Raiden was just brought in as an expert from the Night Stars, rather than having some decent interaction to establish why he remained. Maybe we need to do some catch up on that?

[oneiros]

I guess your right. IC, Azir didn't know Raiden had exalted when he was recruited. We probably also shouldn't have hand-waved the prosetelysing discussion with Fox coz that's what set Azir on the whole "UCS is great and the masses need to be enlightened" path.

Problem with this is that it sets up the conflict of restoration of Solar rule whilst the Great Curse is still in effect (and unknown to us IC). Cue hubris, arrogance and Bronze Faction antagonism. Again.

BR/Fox - go talk to Raiden! Now!

Seriously, though, yeah, I think once we've got a semblance of our power back, we need to sit down as a group and work out exactly how we're going to use that to a) meet our motivations and b) do the good thing/fight the good fight.

[cardinalsin]

I'd actually like to try and have this talk before we get a semblance of our power back. The more Raiden helps to give the solars a chance to rule, the more he needs to justify doing it. After all, it's no good handing over power to someone then realising they're a tyrant *after* that.

Conversation with BR/Fox is one thing I intend to pursue. But unless it's a really successful conversation I think there's a need to bring out the idea that either the solars themselves, or their goals, and preferably both, are virtuous. No matter how wonderful the UCS is.

[Learned Hand]

I agree with what O said. I think most of the solars, and Kairos certainly, are trying to go Good Things. In Kairos's case, he wants to build a utopia. I also like the tensions that we've had so far, where Fox and occasionally Azir have had to point out that killing lots of people now on the off-change that future people will be better off isn't the done thing. I think it's made for some good rp, and it fits with our respective virtue-spreads.

But I also agree with you (CS) that a lot (most) of this hasn't been explicit IC. I guess I always assumed that our guys were doing lots of male bonding and talking about the future 'behind the scenes', but of course this does leave IC holes in motivations.

I think a clear IC talk about what we're going to do, and just what means are acceptable would be a fun thing to play out and make IC sense for a lot of people. Especially, as you say, Raiden, who hasn't spent as much time with the circle, what with his stay in Sijan, and so might be less in the loop.

Could be worth doing on the boards? I mean, if people want to? I'd suggest using SC rules and ticks. Not because we're going to go all pvp or even need to roll dice, but because it will mean we avoid the problems we've had before where some people (me being one of them) post more than others and so dominate the conversation.

[bravesirrobin]

I think the problem here is a discrepancy between words and actions. I know the characters and I know that mostly they think they are doing good, or want to be doing good. But I have to say that I doubt if that would be apparant from an outside perspective.

I think an IC discussion might also help. And SC timing might help that work out. So if you guys wanna have a go at that feel free. The other issue is that even with a tick system some people just don't have the opportunity to get very involved on the boards...

[cardinalsin]

I think it's encouraging that there are heroic intentions to be exposed... but as BSR says I think there is a disparity between words and actions. So far it's impossible to tell that the group isn't just a cabal of power-hungry monsters (to exaggerate slightly). The fact that Kairos has to be dissuaded from randomly killing people to make progress actually makes this problem worse, not better!

But generally, pleased to see people are up for rping this through. If we go for the forums we'll lose BR and possibly others too (MDV?). Though I'd probably prefer that to nothing happening at all. OTOH I think I'd prefer not to ret-con this... so we'll probably have to wait until we're reunited at some future point anyway and/or roleplay it out in our two separate groups.

[Blackrat]

Yes. Sorry.

[Learned Hand]

On that note, sorry to meta-game a bit, but I thought I'd make Kairos unusually callous to prompt this conversation.

Put it down to the fact his limit is about to break.

[Blackrat]

Got it

[bravesirrobin]

Oct 1, 2008 12:09:39 GMT Learned Hand said:

On that note, sorry to meta-game a bit, but I thought I'd make Kairos unusually callous to prompt this conversation.

Put it down to the fact his limit is about to break.

I think this needs to happen, so I'm not really worried about meta-gaming a little to get there.