bravesirrobin
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He bravely turned his tail and fled
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 19, 2008 23:13:44 GMT
OK, I think we need to hammer this out. I'm not a huge fan of how the craft rules work and I have my own philosophy on what we do with them. I've come up with a three level rating system, similar to some of the other three level systems.
Mundane Crafts can be used to produce goods rated by resources
Magical Crafts can be used to produce goods rated by artifact
Esoteric crafts produce other things entirely.
The five mundane crafts are Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Wood.
Each of these deals with the areas mentioned in the core rulebook.
The five magical crafts are analogues of these, each dealing with specific areas. I think two of these may need to be renamed.
Technomancy - Air analogue, deals with mechanisms and moving energy.
Geomancy - Earth analogue, deals with manse, demesnes and similar.
Pyrognostics - Fire analogue, deals with crafting and shaping the magical materials to specific uses.
Alchemy - Water analogue, deals with brewing potions and transmuting substances.
Genesis - Wood analogue, deals with shaping living things and creating life.
The corebook describes first age wonders as needing Craft(Magitech) - they are more likely to need Craft(Technomancy) with mechanisms and similar wearing down. Damage to the material components would require Craft(Pyrognostics). Hence the need to likely rename these two.
A magical craft cannot be more than three dots higher than it's mundane equivalent. And can't be possesed at all if there are no dots in the mundane equivalent. However, dots in the mundane equivalent can count towards minimums needed in certain types of project (at a ratio of 2:1).
Alchemy is described as a Thaumaturgical art in Oadenel's codex - but thematically I prefer it to be a magical craft. The thematics of thaumaturgy can be discussed in more detail if need be.
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bravesirrobin
Geek of Geeks
Post-Whore
He bravely turned his tail and fled
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 19, 2008 23:28:57 GMT
Esoteric Crafts:
Craft(Glamour) - Air Analogue (Fair Folk)
Craft(Fate) - Earth Analogue (Gods)
Craft(Moliation) - Fire Analogue (Demons)
Craft(Thought) - Water Analogue (Primordials)
Craft(Souls) - Wood Analogue (Deathlords)
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 19, 2008 23:40:39 GMT
Sounds interesting to me.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 19, 2008 23:41:27 GMT
OK, I think we need to hammer this out. Also, that pun is despicable. Was it deliberate? |
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bravesirrobin
Geek of Geeks
Post-Whore
He bravely turned his tail and fled
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 20, 2008 0:06:31 GMT
OK, I think we need to hammer this out. Also, that pun is despicable. Was it deliberate? Mmmmmmmaaaaaybe  |
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 20, 2008 8:11:24 GMT
OK, I think we need to hammer this out. I'm not a huge fan of how the craft rules work and I have my own philosophy on what we do with them. I've come up with a three level rating system, similar to some of the other three level systems. Mundane Crafts can be used to produce goods rated by resources Magical Crafts can be used to produce goods rated by artifact Esoteric crafts produce other things entirely. The five mundane crafts are Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Wood. Each of these deals with the areas mentioned in the core rulebook. The five magical crafts are analogues of these, each dealing with specific areas. I think two of these may need to be renamed. Crystalsis* - Air analogue, deals with mechanisms and moving energy. Geomancy - Earth analogue, deals with manse, demesnes and similar. Magitech* - Fire analogue, deals with crafting and shaping the magical materials to specific uses. Alchemy - Water analogue, deals with brewing potions and transmuting substances. Genesis - Wood analogue, deals with shaping living things and creating life. * Renaming these is highly likely. The corebook describes first age wonders as needing Craft(Magitech) - they are more likely to need Craft(Crystalsis) with mechanisms and similar wearing down. Damage to the material components would require Craft(Magitech). Hence the need to likely rename these two. A magical craft cannot be more than three dots higher than it's mundane equivalent. And can't be possesed at all if there are no dots in the mundane equivalent. However, dots in the mundane equivalent can count towards minimums needed in certain types of project (at a ratio of 2:1). Alchemy is described as a Thaumaturgical art in Oadenel's codex - but thematically I prefer it to be a magical craft. The thematics of thaumaturgy can be discussed in more detail if need be. You can't seriously be suggesting that we make craft require more dots than canon? It's already almost impossible to do anything. Ferric has 30, dots, 6 dots of specialties, and 6 charms in craft and it still takes months to make a pair of bloody bracers (could be bought with 2 background dots, or by killing a DB), longer if he doesn't spend all of his time in the wyld. |
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bravesirrobin
Geek of Geeks
Post-Whore
He bravely turned his tail and fled
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Post by bravesirrobin on Feb 20, 2008 8:23:58 GMT
I haven't seen Ferric's character sheet, but I am imagining that this system won't require any additional dots, and will in fact enable him to build higher level artifacts without the minimums of 6 that canon requires.
There's a reason that it's really difficult to build artifacts, they can be game changing. Having been in a game where we had artifacts on demand i know this first hand. It''s not power that should be given away lightly.
I imagine Ferric would take a month to produce 1 1dot/2dot artifact with the right set up. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Rahter than make craft easier I actually intend to make other things more similar to craft by comparison. Recovering the lost knowledge of ancients should be difficult. And often finiding it will be easier than reinventing it.
I'm going to brussels now. Will try to get on internet but can't be sure I will.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 20, 2008 9:22:18 GMT
Also, that pun is despicable. Was it deliberate? Mmmmmmmaaaaaybe  |
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 20, 2008 9:45:55 GMT
There's a reason that it's really difficult to build artifacts, they can be game changing. Having been in a game where we had artifacts on demand i know this first hand. It''s not power that should be given away lightly. I agree with this. Unlike Resources, obviously, having 5 dots in the Artifact background does not imply that you can come across 2- and 3-dot artifacts trivially. A two-dot artifact can still be extremely significant - examples are pretty obvious, but would include daiklaves, some of the armours, etc. - and so if they could turn up in the game every couple of weeks that will be a really big change. I may be wrong on this, but I think that if you bought two 2-dot artifacts at character creation, that would cost you 4 dots in total. In other words, artifacts are, in vanilla Exalted at least, supposed to be very rare indeed. (An in-game thought: where are we getting all the magical materials from? They are also rare, of course.) Now, I don't think it necessarily breaks the game to have an artifact factory, but it does change the style of play significantly - making the power levels much higher, thus requiring more high-level stuff like mass combat and empire-building, and less low-level character-centric stuff, and so forth. This isn't a problem as such, but it does make the game very different, which might well affect (both positively and negatively) how much people enjoy it. Given that this is the second argument about power levels that we've had in as many days, is this something we should discuss before continuing? It seems that there are different tastes within the group and I suspect unless we make a group decision about the type of game we're looking for, people are going to keep being disappointed. And frankly, rules arguments are not my favourite part of RP so if we can get the general policy out of the way in one go that would be a Good Thing in my opinion. |
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 20, 2008 11:17:20 GMT
I actually quite like rules arguments.
I agree that an artifact factory is a Very Bad Thing. I think this says more about the brokenness of 'Imbue Amalgam' than anything else. I was looking at it the other day and fantasising about creating a small group of super-generals. It should be a solar circle spell.
The limits on having an artifact factory are canonically provided by the time required, and the dot minimums. To build an artifact at level 3 requires 60 successes at difficultly 5 rolls, made at one per season. CNNT gets this down to 3 per month but that's dedicated work and we won't always have 1 month of downtime between sessions. Rolling 18 dice and spending a wp each time will still take the best part of a year *of dedicated work*. Artifacts at 4 dots will take more than a year. Artifact 1s and 2s might take a season.
Another limit on artifact creation is provided by the need for exotic ingredients - each artifact requires its level in exotic ingredients (not just mm) which require quests and trades with the Fae. Doesn't matter how quickly you can build artifacts if you can't find the 'love of a mother for her stillborn child' distilled into a gem. As well as jade, it's reasonable to suppose that bracers require another ingredient - a requirement that I imagine was not there in Olaf's campaign. So even if Ferric could build artifacts in a month - which he can't - he would still be limited by the need to go and find whatever exotic ingredient was necessary. Which, incidentally, awesome plots ahoy!
I begged MDV not to be a craftsman. I do think that its almost pointless. In theory solars live for millenia so spending a year making a 3-dot artifact is not a problem. In practice, a year might contain 2 stories, which mean that it will take you 2 stories to build anything. You'd be better off assasinating outcastes and looting the bodies.
Whilst you don't want to have factories, you don't want to make crafting a process that spans the length of the whole campaign. Proclaiming 'we've defeated the empire, and also, I've just now finished the magic door that lets us get to Nexus' is a little bit anti-climatic, especially since 2 people in the circle will have mastered the spells that let you travel 200mph in the meantime.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 20, 2008 12:58:43 GMT
The limits on having an artifact factory are canonically provided by the time required, and the dot minimums... Artifacts at 4 dots will take more than a year. Artifact 1s and 2s might take a season. But weren't you suggesting above that you weren't happy with this and wanted to speed things up? From... Perhaps I've misunderstood? Anyway, I'm happy with the canonical lengths if you are, but I don't think we should speed them up much. I can see your concern that it shouldn't take any longer either - are you happy with BSR's response to that above? Or at least happy to see how it goes? |
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 20, 2008 13:46:04 GMT
Also, I should point out that I do enjoy rules arguments too - they're just not my favourite part of the game. I'm just a little concerned that this campaign might be getting bogged down in rules discussions and thus might not progress as fast or as smoothly as it could. One possible solution to that is to check, sooner rather than later, that we're all expecting / desiring the same things from the campaign. (I feel this is something we should be doing more in general anyway.) However, if no-one else shares my concerns then it's pointless, obviously |
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Post by oneiros on Feb 20, 2008 14:58:11 GMT
I wouldn't say pointless, but I share your concern that these seem more like a detraction from or a hindrance to the overall cohesiveness and 'friendliness' of the campaign. I guess a lack of familiarity with the rules/items in such detail prevents me at least from getting involved in these discussions and therefore a bystander to the outcomes.
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Post by Blackrat on Feb 20, 2008 15:09:12 GMT
I guess a lack of familiarity with the rules/items in such detail prevents me at least from getting involved in these discussions See, I am also not terribly familiar with the rules - certainly compared to LH and BSR - but I stick my oar in anyway Perhaps I should stop. |
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Post by Learned Hand on Feb 20, 2008 16:00:42 GMT
The limits on having an artifact factory are canonically provided by the time required, and the dot minimums... Artifacts at 4 dots will take more than a year. Artifact 1s and 2s might take a season. But weren't you suggesting above that you weren't happy with this and wanted to speed things up? From... Perhaps I've misunderstood? Anyway, I'm happy with the canonical lengths if you are, but I don't think we should speed them up much. I can see your concern that it shouldn't take any longer either - are you happy with BSR's response to that above? Or at least happy to see how it goes? Oh I'm totally ok with the canonical lengths. I mean, I'll whinge about them but only in the same way I take it as an affront that I can't roll 30 dice for everything. I do think the dot requirements are a bit over the top but I'm not even suggesting that they change (although, for the record, craft (elemental) has been suggested as a replacement for the 5 mundane crafts  I am, however, concerned that it might (a) take longer, or (b) need more dots. I think the canonical craft rules are only just debatably the correct side of too underpowered. I'd be very wary of anything that might push them the wrong way. |
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