Party

[Blackrat]

"S'interesting - I prefer the first & third P'raps I'm just being daft here, but it seems like our offer is, 'Fancy being subservient to us? It'll be great!' - which wouldn't sound like a tempting offer to me if I was in their shoes. Wouldn't it be better to start out with an alliance and then forge closer bonds from there? Unless we have something fantastic to offer them and I wasn't paying attention... And like I said before, I'm not a big fan of, 'we can offer you... your lives, which we'll end if you don't agree'.

"Kairos, this also kind of answers your question about money - I know we are going to use it in real good ways, for the other folks too, but there's no real reason why they should trust us to do that just based on our word. I dunno - it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

"As I say, I may be missing something..."

[oneiros]

[to answer BSR's questions: a) probably all four kingdoms; b) um, depends on whether Elsan will be available to be married off (even just as NPC - which would actually be v helpful since it gives us effectively a Solar-in-residence to make sure affairs of state run to our plan; c) probably just the plan that we intend to convince the other rulers to join Tredamin to form a grand unified state.

And not that I may have thought too much about this...]

Whilst the debate continues, Azir has been rapidly scribbling notes and looks up again. "Friend Fox is right in that simply attempting to browbeat them into vassalage could have undesired repercussions. We need social stability and understanding, as well as time, if we're to win them round to the ways of the Unconquered Sun - which is unlikely if we have to expend too much of our time and effort in forcing things at the start.

"That said, we will need Friend Kairos' persuasive talents to at least get us over the first hurdle, and he is right in envisaging the dragonblood will probably put up sternest resistance.

"My considerations, for what they're worth, are to put forward a grand vision of unity that looks to benefit all five kingdoms and increase prosperity going forward into a new age of civilization and enlightenment for all. We may have to temper the message slightly for each ruler but we use this as the basic message. We would be looking for fealty to the new nation rather than to us or Tredamin as vassals - makes things easier in the long run.

"We propose a single nation with freedom of movement but relative autonomy for the constituent 'provinces' - each ruler acts as a provincial governor, acting as they see fit but responsible to the nation as a whole. This way we all share in consolidated regional power as well as providing a unified defence against external threats. We could even go so far as to say that these are coming what with the turbulence surrounding the Scarlet Empress' disappearance.

"Overall governance to be by ruling council of ministers and we offer these ministries to the others to 'sweeten the deal'. I suggest 6 ministries - with a possible Chief Minister (ideally one of us) to break any deadlocks - of the following:
- FOREIGN (to include War): this will be held by Tredamin and we do not offer it since we have greatest control over this place already;
- TRADE (to include RESOURCES);
- FINANCE (to include a Central Treasury);
- SCIENCE (to include EDUCATION, MAGICS and CRAFTS);
- INTERIOR (to include LOCAL DEFENCE).
- BUREAUCRACY, just to keep administration running smoothly.

"I'd suggest offering Kharadron either the Finance or Interior ministries, then at least we can keep their focus internal; Elemyr will probably be best suited for the Science ministry. And as we add more nations, they will be offered departments to run. With everybody involved, we make sure that everyone has a vested interest in keeping things running smoothly. This also allows us to see where the strengths of the nation lie.

"Nominally, we should ensure to establish our roles as advisers to the Ministers and/or the Council which should hopefully allow us to step in and correct any faulty movements as necessary. Later on, we can then move to rulership as necessary once Fox's preaching has worked its way through society." Azir pauses in his monologue to look at the assembled group.

"Those are my thoughts." He shrugs. "At the end of the day, though, I'm a doctor, not a political strategist."

[Learned Hand]

You make some wise points. I think we all agree what the outcomes must be, but we disagree on the timing. Having heard you arguments, I tend to agree with you.

Nevertheless, I do think it is worth converting some of the individual rulers to our side. Certainly the mortal sovereigns of our two neighbours, and if possible, the dragonblood. That, certainly, we can do with a series of individual soirees.

[oneiros]

[TBH, I'm not sure how much we can proceed further on discussing timings and how to proceed until we know what the situation with Elsan/Shrubbery is at the very least - which is unfortunately going to have to wait until BSR gets back. Coz we'll definitely have to rework things if there *isn't* going to be a wedding.]

[Blackrat]

[I think we can pretty much assume Elsan is out.

Also, I haven't yet had time to read Oneiros's post above, but will do so ASAP.]

[bravesirrobin]

[The Elsan issue will be resolved shortly - though possibly not in time to have the party pre-session. We'll see.

Also, does Azir have some Bureaucracy, cos he just pulled off a 3die bureaucracy stunt

And the nature of the world means that generally foreign and war would almost certainly be seperate ministries. Trade and finance plus Interior and Bureaucracy probably not seperate either, though obviously you can just create your own system if you so desire - rather than relying on old standbys.]

[Blackrat]

'Azir, that's fuckin' great. I'm guessin' there'll be some chat about what the exact ministries should be, but we can work that out. The other rulers may have something useful to say on that too, in fact - no point decidin' it all ourselves.

'Just a thought - I reckon Kharadron and Elemyr will squabble over the trade ministry. Elemyr's got the big river but Kharadron's got most of the trade roads goin' through it. I dunno how we want to deal with that.

'In fact, I reckon I might take a trip around and see what I can dig up. Don't reckon I'm gonna be much use on the finer points of this government, and I'm sure as hell not gonna be trusted as an advisor, so I don't think I've got much more to say on this one.'

[Unless there's much more to say, Fox will now head off to Kharadron. He'll be back 'soon'. See the 'Fox's return' thread for further details, when I get round to writing in it.]

[oneiros]

[Woah! - colour me happy, a bureaucracy stunt!

And, yeah, Azir has 2 dots in it. Does that mean I can take an XP for the stunt?

Hmm, was thinking about keeping War as a function of Foreign, coz we'd want to present a friendly face... and be different But yeah, world setup prob means War is sep. We could always fold Trade & Finance together if we want to keep a balance and separate at later stage as the empire grows.

Are we going for:
a) one party to get it all done; or
b) one party to say celebrate driving off the barbarian raids followed by smaller individual diplomatic soirees?]

[Learned Hand]

[I reckon one 'official' party, and something a little bit more clandestine for the DB. Even if he only has an integrity excellency, he'll be much tougher than the others.

Kairos may be able to lure him away on 'guild business'. He *is* running The Guild in these parts and the HQ is based in Kharadon because of the road]