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Post by Olaf on Apr 24, 2007 19:56:18 GMT
"You want me to promise on my soul?" She looks uneasy at the idea. "I mean, I've got no problem with making the world better and that but - how do I know you're not tryin' to trick me? You're a demon, so isn't tricking people into promising you their soul pretty much what you do?"
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Post by johandenerad on Apr 24, 2007 20:50:16 GMT
"Were I actually trying to trick you, would I have told you I was a demon? I could have made you make a different promise, on absolutely anything, and you wouldn't have realised that anything had happened. I could have pretended you were into 'that kind of thing', that we had done 'that kind of thing', and made you promise on your soul not to tell anyone about me. Pretended to bribe you. That would have worked just as well.
"But I didn't, because I believe you have the right to choose whether or not you enter into a promise with me. A lot of my compatriots aren't so scrupulous. Of course, this could be some big scary honey trap where I pretend I'm a nice demon and I get you to swear willingly either because a) I'm sick or b) there's some mystical requirement. I can't allay your fears there. But what's the world without faith?
"My goal here isn't to make mortals make promises on their souls; it's to build a better world for them and with them. I can do this better if I enter into pacts with people, it makes the both of us stronger. There are other demons who have tricked hundreds of people into making promises they didn't want to and using the power from them to keep the world the way it is, and keep themselves on top. I want to change that.
"My goal is dangerous and difficult and I need strength to achieve it, strength that people can provide. That often makes those people targets for demons who want to strip other demons of their power. I couldn't promise you, if you entered an agreement with me, that you'd never be in any danger. I could promise to minimise it though: once you'd made the promise and went out into the world, I'd need never see you again nor mention your name.
"What you'd get from it? I don't know. I can make you better at whatever you'd want, and you could use your newfound talents to help whoever you want however you want. That would be your choice. Also, I'd hope you'd have faith in me, and in what I'm trying to do, and that would give us both the strength to make difficult decisions.
"Still, I'll re-iterate there's no pressure. We can sit here and talk more about whatever you'd like or you can leave and I'll never contact you again."
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Post by Olaf on Apr 24, 2007 20:56:16 GMT
"You can make me better at anything? That sounds pretty much like a miracle to me!
"What I don't get is how you're talking like there are good demons and bad demons - and you're one of the good ones. Demons are supposed to be enemies of God, right? Like the opposite of angels? Otherwise they wouldn't be demons. And God is good - otherwise he wouldn't be God. So how can a demon be good too then, if it's an enemy of God?"
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Post by johandenerad on Apr 26, 2007 11:49:24 GMT
"God isn't good. I know this because He existed, He made the world and He let what happened happen. We fallen were good by virtue of opposing Him; more specifically by making the choice to interfere in human affairs against His will.
"Do you know the problem of evil? It was originally an argument against the existence of a single, omnipotent, benevolent creator. The argument takes three premises, and denies that all three can be true at once. The premises are: one; God is omnipotent. Two; God is benevolent. Three; there is evil in the world. You can see that three is true, all around you, all the time. The other two are the tricky ones.
"I can tell you that one is - or was - also true. So the only one left to be false is two. That might seem overly simplistic - perhaps there is a mystery to God's plan, perhaps this whole world, as it is now, is a den for making souls, for worthy mortals to ascend through to His light. Personally I think that's bullshit.
"Suppose we allow that God is benevolent as His plan for the world is too mysterious for us to understand. Even then, when we make decisions, we still have make them based on our own judgement, and not just say 'oh God has a plan so it's ok'. What do you do when two imperatives contradict each other, then?
"God gave us two orders when we made you: to love you and not to interact, in any way, with you. We did both, and it caused us pain. What benevolent creator does that? There was so much potential for you to grow and flourish, but you remained ignorant, wallowing in dust. But we obeyed Him, and loved you from afar.
"Then one of my brothers saw a great darkness coming for humanity; one we thought you could not face alone, ignorant as you were. The course of action we had to take was no longer clear. On the one hand, we loved you and would do anything to spare you from the fate we saw. On the other, we were commanded not to reveal ourselves to you.
"We were very used to being without doubt. What God commanded was good, and to be followed. We had absolute faith in Him, and were creatures of strict hierarchy and discipline. When this situation came upon us it was impossible to *know* what to do, we had to make a choice. None of us had ever made a choice before, and we were confused by it. A lot of us were scared by it. But a full third of us chose to obey the command of love over the command of revelation.
"With hindsight, of course, it's easy to say that we could have both loved you and not interfered and thus obeyed both of His commands. A loving parent must be cruel to be kind sometimes, and not get in the way so that a child can learn from it's mistakes. But what parent lets their toddler play at the edge of a roof of a 12 floor building? We wanted to help... and maybe that want, that pushed against His will, is what caused the darkness in the first place. Sometimes I do think it's our fault.
"And then I remember that if He was 'good' he would never have put us in that situation. There was no need for the test He gave us, we were His faithful. So God, who had put is in pain over you, now forced us to do something utterly alien to us - be tested - again, over you. Then He had the audacity to complain about the result. For our enlightening humanity, He broke the world they lived in, punishing both human and angel for a sin they couldn't have understood. When we finally lost the war, He put us in hell.
"So no, God isn't good. Good is caring about things and trying to protect and improve them until they can stand on their own two feet. God is not that. Some of me and my brothers are that, just as some humans are. The only reason that people think God is good, and that religion has been used as a tool by the greedy and unrighteous for all these centuries is because history is written by the winners."
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Post by Olaf on May 3, 2007 12:01:22 GMT
"I guess that makes sense. God should be able to stop bad stuff happening if he cared, but I dunno... you're asking me to believe a lot. Why did God make the world if he's so evil, then? Why did he make all the- all the nice stuff there is in life?"
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Post by johandenerad on May 4, 2007 13:58:32 GMT
"When I say He made the world, I mean He made us make it. We made absolutely everything, including you, as I've said. We were imperfect, because He made us so. So naturally there were imperfections in our creation. At any time He could have told us how to overcome them, but He didn't. He simply gave us His orders and left us with a moral problem we couldn't understand. And to preserve 'all the nice stuff', as you put it, we made the decision we did. We fought for it. Anything you like about your society or culture, we fought for, to keep you from He who would keep you ignorant. There would be no 'nice stuff' if it weren't for us."
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Post by Olaf on May 4, 2007 18:08:51 GMT
Clare looks at you in silence for moments, trying but failing a couple of times to speak. The corners of her eyes are moist when at last she succeeds.
"So, it was you who made the world, not him. And who looked after it. And-" Her fingers twist themselves in the chain of her necklace as she tries to forumalte the words. "And, that means - everything we thought was God, everything we thanked him, praised him for - that was you too? It was all you, doing it for us? And - he sent you to Hell for that. For us." She reaches out and takes your hand in hers, squeezing it against her palm. Her cheeks are wet. "Oh, Monica. I'm so sorry."
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Post by johandenerad on May 7, 2007 14:32:18 GMT
I smile as even more tears well in my eyes.
"Thankyou for being so understanding Clare. There is a reason we were sent to hell, though, aside from our rebellion. By it's end, we had become demons, twisted and horrible souls. But the few of us that have come back to this earth have been tempered by the humanity we've found in our hosts, and as I've said, some of us want to heal the world. But it's a dangerous endeavour.
"I have to tell you that Monica isn't my real name. It isn't even the real name of the human person I was before I became what I am now. The reason I haven't told you my real name is because names have power. It's reflected by how you interact with people. You are more comfortable when someone you know uses your name than someone who doesn't, and using your name is a way of getting and holding your attention easily. For demons, it's more than that. Someone who knows my actual, real name can use it to bind and command me. Your not knowing it makes us both safer, because if anyone ever found you and tried to use you to find out my name, they would most likely know that you didn't know it and then leave you alone.
"So we made the world, saw it break from our prison, and now (some of us) are back to fix it. Is there anything else you'd like to ask?"
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Post by Olaf on May 11, 2007 11:08:07 GMT
"I don't know... it's all so much to take in. I'd like to help you, um, 'heal the world', but I don't know what that involves - what am I being asked to do? I mean, I can do nice things for people and stuff, but I guess that's not really what you're talking about if you made the world and now it's broken somehow. It must be very complicated, I mean. Um. Is there some way you can show me what you're talking about?"
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Post by johandenerad on May 21, 2007 13:29:50 GMT
"What you do for the world wouldn't have to be complicated, or difficult, as long as you tried to make it better by being here. Doing voluntary or charity work is great, or campaigning to raise awareness about things people should be aware of. Just being aware of them yourself makes the world an infintesimally better place. And it won't change overnight. It will take generations of people who are willing to help others instead of themselves before the world can even be considered right again.
"I can give you the tools to go and seek out whatever you want in the world, and all I ask in return is that you promise to be a good person. Even if you become an investment banker or a Hollywood movie star, as long as you gave money to charity, spend time taking out your old neighbours bins or chatting to depressed looking people on trains, that's fine. I want you to keep an open mind and look for what you want to do to help, not ask me. Showing you would defeat the point. You have to make the right decisions yourself.
"The dangers of the agreement you could make with me are truly scary ones - some demons ravage the souls of those who enter into a pact with them, which can manifest as physical wounds, and can even kill the person in question. I would never do that to you, but you'd have to take that on faith. But if you're willing to open your mind and accept the strength that I can give you, you can change this world for the better while still enjoying yourself. If everyone could make that leap of faith and just spend a tenth of his time working for others, and genuinely for others, not just doing a job because it pays the bills, the world can get back on it's feet again."
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Post by Olaf on May 21, 2007 22:38:17 GMT
She goes slightly pale at the mention of your being able to kill her. "Um - if promising things on my soul makes them... more promised, can you promise not to hurt me on yours? Or doesn't it work like that for Demons?" She bites her lip nervously as though worried she's committed a faux pas.
After you answer: "Also, you mentioned tools?"
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Post by johandenerad on May 23, 2007 13:35:27 GMT
I smile reassuringly.
"I could work it into the agreement that should I ever try to hurt you in that way, the agreement would be broken and thus I wouldn't be able to."
At the mention of tools, I smile even more reassuringly.
"As for tools, I meant metaphorical ones, more like being better at maths or playing basketball or whatever you can think of, really. Although, I might be able to get you magic stuff if I tried. Though that probably wouldn't be a good idea, come to think of it."
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Post by Olaf on May 30, 2007 7:36:01 GMT
Your assurance about not hurting her seems to calm her.
"Maths or basketball? Oh, I guess those were just examples. Well, I dunno - I mean, you're the angel. I guess you must know better than me what I can use to help people." She scrunches up her forehead in thought. "Money would be good, right? If I had money I could use it for charity, and have more time to do good stuff instead of working."
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